Guild Alliances
by Xxav on September 16, 2011, 5:51 pm, under EverQuest 2
I am receiving a lot of mail about the guild alliances that are on the Crushbone progression. The FAQ does not say that guild alliances are not allowed. It simply says guild alliances weren’t supported because at that time I was populating guild lists automatically using EQ2Players. I am still undecided as to whether or not alliances should be in the rankings. Please post your comments/suggestions here.
September 18th, 2011 on 4:00 am
Having raided with 3 different top 10 Crushbone raid forces, Obliteration during late TSO, Inertia during late SF, and now CRA Brigade 8 in DoV, the only one of them that figured out each fight and formulated their own strats for progression mobs has been Brigade 8. That said, the 3 different brigades and 1 raid guild I frequently raid with all use different strats on several fights, based on what has worked best for their team.
My main, DopplerWeather, had waited for a Wizard opening in Brigade 8 for over two years before I was finally able to try out for and make the team this past March. In the 6 months I’ve been blessed to raid with them, I’ve heard nobody in raid yell at anyone else at any time. How many top 10 raiding forces have that level of character within their raid leadership? I had to go to CRA to find it.
The only advantage that CRA has is that it doesn’t spend any raid time SLR’ing loot. The downside is the plat splits, from the few brigades that do them, tend to be lower. But that just means that players mains generally don’t have the resources or interest to BUY loot rights to gear their mains. The disadvantages are that getting fixed guild groups for heroic content is more difficult, you have a lower plat income from raiding, you don’t immediately know every single piece of fabled gear that another member of your raid team wins outside of raid, and CRA isn’t willing to directly recruit anyone from another raid force, be it another brigade or Crushbone raiding guild. This greatly slows the influx of new talent to the different CRA brigades, whereas I haven’t seen that level of respect for autonomy in the 5 different raiding guilds I’ve run with.
If the site decides that the CRA Brigades should run with an asterisk next to their names on the site to indicate the additional disadvantages they’ve had to overcome to progress relative to some raiding guilds, that’s fine by me.
Best of luck to my friends in CRA, Strike, Vigilance, Dark Prophecy, Genesis, Vivid, Godmode, In Harms Way, Vendetta, Revenge, and everyone else I’ve enjoyed playing this fine game with. Keep up the good work all.
September 18th, 2011 on 4:36 am
Seems like quite a bit of emotion and not much logic for removing CRA. Arguments are spurious at best, I cant help but wonder if the motivations are more personal in nature.
Quite a few of the original posters don’t seem to actually know what CRA is. The remaining show reasoning based on false generalizations that don’t seem to have been fully thought through.
~Raider alts are more likely to join CRA than mains therefore CRA has an advantage..~
What is the basis for this assumption ?
What would send these “raid alts” to join CRA before they went to any other “up and coming raid guild” ? There is no answer, because there is no difference.
There is no charter that says once you raid with one guild you cant raid with any others. The fact is, some do, and some don’t. As someone else has pointed out, there are some GUILDS that are taking non-tagged raiders on as part of their regular raidforce (CRA2.0?)
Another completely ridiculous argument was the idea CRA has it easy because guilds have to deal with people leaving, quitting the game, etc.. That guilds have people that have had to rebuild after hard times. They had to walk hand in hand together in the snow, uphill both ways etc.
What is it about these challenges that are unique to a guild environment? You think CRA brigs dont have people leave ? Whole groups get mad or grow apart from others and break off to go somewhere else ?
As with the point above, just a little bit of critical thinking will tell you that this another red herring.
Bottom line is,one cant say CRA does X and Raid guilds do Y, therefor CRA has it easier (or vice versa).
Fact of the matter is CRA Brigs and “Raid guilds” are all but indistinguishable from each other besides the .
That basically leaves us with the “CRA is not a guild” framed as a Symantec argument. This is the only point that can really stand on its own.
If you honestly think about the spirit of progression tracking it still makes sense to allow the Brigades to remain. They are for all intents and purposes mini-raid guilds as stated above.
Think about it.. CRA could literally create a new “guild” for each brigade tomorrow and name them CRABRIG1,2,3,etc and be in full compliance. Nothing would change for CRA, they could keep the same rules, same members, same leaders. They could still recruit the same, and use the same website to communicate. The question is, what benefit would this be to anyone?
How would this somehow level the playing field for guilds who apparently feel like they are at an unfair disadvantage?
It wouldn’t
September 18th, 2011 on 9:55 am
The CRA is ridiculously large, they have in fact plagued the server since they started. There are other raiding alliances on other servers…but they dont have a gazillion brigs in them. They dont completely swallow the server, and systematically destroy smaller raiding guilds by offering the ability to raid w/out being committed to a guild to do it. There is actually something to be proud of when you can form a guild or join a guild..be committed and succeed! Try it sometime…its fucking amazing!
There are guilds in EQ2….I wonder why there are guilds in eq2…lets see…cause that is how it was intended to be run. There is a GUILD page…to find a guild to join a guild…there is no “find an alliance” page when you start playing the game. No..they wanted us to form and join guilds, to build commraderie, to have a home where you work together…not where you run off and raid w/ whoever and create 15 brigs and basically plague the server.
Should regular guilds that run alt raids list themselves twice or hell even 3 times ? If regular guilds fill up on one raid and form a 2nd..should they be listed twice ?
That is essentially what the CRA is doing. I dont care if the CRA Is listed there once….but multiple times ? If you are trying to claim that you are the definition of a “guild” but w/out the guild name…then you should ONLY be listed once. Just like the other “guilds” are.
Smaller guilds have been competing with the CRA for years, when trying to recruit folks…its ridiculous…its harder to recruit people and try to explain dedication to them when they say ” Oh well why do i have to leave my guild to raid with you?”…..uhh….really? We really have to explain that we want people dedicated to the guild as a whole…not just themselves. CRA promotes nothing but selfishness.
Put an asterisk after their name, put only one of them on the site….or start a 2nd listing for “alliances” and let the CRA rule the alliance page…
September 18th, 2011 on 10:17 am
TO Inqy-Girl I say get over yourself already. The “CRA has plagued the server for years?” The CRA does not prevent anyone from forming a guild and raiding. There are currently 30 guilds listed on Guildprogress…how could this be if the CRA were destroying the server?
To me, the reasons to exclude the CRA are more personal in nature then actual reasons. Personally, I look at the rankings and of the top 8 raid forces 2 are CRA, 4 came from LDL and two are Crushbone. How about instead of trying to exclude us you go out and beat us. Stop hiding behind the anonymity of your screen and kill more mobs then we do. Or, if you can’t piece together enough to form a raid force go to http://www.eq2cra.com and apply. Even though you seem to hate us…I am quite certain we would welcome you. Why you ask? Because the CRA is about INCLUSION and allowing everyone an opportunity to raid and enjoy the EQ2 experience.
September 18th, 2011 on 10:45 am
I normally don’t get into debates like this, but after reading this. It Seems that a lot of people do not understand what CRA really does. Yes, CRA has more then one team and Yes,CRA has a lot of people in it. But each brig runs on their own. Each Brig has it’s own 24 man team (not counting back-ups). Each with it’s own set of rules for loot/roster selection/leadership. To me that sounds much like any guild i’ve been in.
Now the one differance that people seem to get stuck on is the whole tag thing.
‘…systematically destroy smaller raiding guilds by offering the ability to raid w/out being committed to a guild to do it.” was stated by a couple differnt people. From what I see is that CRA supports the smaller guilds by letting people stay in their own guild with their friends who may not be into raiding. After all this is a MMO and there is more to do then just raiding. To me a Guild is a group of people/friends (RL or in game) that enjoy being together. So to force someone into a guild just for raiding seems to defeat the point of a guild.
To get a bit more on topic here. The point of this site is track and rank the progress of all the different raid team on a server. Now from being in both single “guild” and muilt “guild” raid setting. I’m all for each CRA Brig, Single guild, and any other Muilt Guild raid team set up to list their own progress. Even if that means “Single Guild” as 1,2,3, 4 because they have that many memebers. Personal I would love to see where my team stands in reguards to every other team out there.
In closing, I feel that regaurdless how the raid team is formed. That team should be listed, because that team as killed the mob, and it is that team should be credited for their hard work. Regaurdless of what name that team goes by.
Thanks,
Palamond
CRA Brig 9
P.s. (on a personal note). If it was not for CRA I would not even be playing this game anymore. Because of most of my friends that played were not interested in raiding but I was. Becuase of CRA, I was able to play with my RL friends in our own guild, w/o dealing with any of the drama that tends to creep up, and yet still be able to raid with a dedacited team. Thanks!
September 18th, 2011 on 11:08 am
Of course they should be considered in the rankings. Though there are several reasons, In the interest of brevity, I will list the obvious three. Firstly, semantics. A raid force by any other name is still a raid force. Guild structure ( or in the case of CRA a structure of guilds ) seems to be somewhat irrelevant for the purposes of listing progression. If guild A absorbs guild B, do we complain that they are not called Guild AB? Or that they have experienced players from B so should be called by that name? This brings us to the second reason; legitimacy. Does one think that the king of France would have lived if he would have only used the logic, “Well, except for the poor people, we’re doing fine!” One can say to one’s raid mates, “Pay no attention to them because they are not a ‘real’ raid force”, but they know this would not be a legitimate statement. Furthermore, IMHO one risks compromising the service of this list if certain raid forces are omitted.
Lastly, there would be no benefactors. Who in their right mind would propose omitting certain raiders from any list. A good raid leader looks for the advantage of competition to propel his raiders. There is NO good competitor who enters a race with the idea of not having to run fast as long as I can convince people to disqualify those that run faster!
So, run fast! Raid well! Enjoy a large community of fellow raiders, it only helps everyone.
Regards,
Masa
September 18th, 2011 on 11:11 am
@Inqy-girl. “Should regular guilds that run alts raids be listed twice?” Are you really this slow? It has been explained time and time again in this thread to you that one of our teams has at most 3 alts in it, while the others have 1-2 if that. The other 21-23 raiders are independent and NOT raiding with another team within the CRA. How are you not comprehending this?
“Selfishness” Wow. You really are off in left field. I have seen first hand raiders give up a piece of loot on their own with no reservation. Since April of 07 when the first team formed I have seen the core of MY raid team show up night after night after night. Along the way we’ve had our ups and downs. We have remained together because of two things.
FIRST: our comradery is unparalleled. I use that because above in one of these absurd excuses of posts it was stated we have none, when the truth be told ours is greater than most other teams on this server. How many teams have you been in? Where’s your loyalty?
SECOND: unlike most other raid teams we respect each other. Each of my 23 raiders on Brig 3 knows. You be online 3 nights a week, rain or shine or I will replace you. I don’t hound them to sign up on any calendar. I don’t send mass tells begging people to raid with me. I respect the fact that these people are going to show (unless some emergency comes up as life sometimes does). These raiders respect the fact that as their leader I invest a LOT of time into planning and preparation of targets, strat planning (yes we do devise our own, thank you), group makeup, gear makeup, etc.
This isn’t a makeshift PUG group. This is a well-organized, well-trained, outstandingly performing group of mature adults. I understand you are not used to raiding with this caliber of team. You may have applied at one time only to find your attitude not worthy of our teams, or perhaps you were removed from a team.
Where ever your reason of bitterness comes from, I can not help you with that. All I can offer you at this point is an equal opportunity to make whatever raid team you are in better with the resources you have. That is exactly what I have done with my team and each and every one of the CRA Brigade Leaders have done with theirs. It has taken me the better part of 4 1/2 years to train and develop this ONE team of players that are currently kicking your team’s ass. If that upsets you, maybe try a server transfer? Then we won’t be your problem any longer.
In any case, you are off base and spouting utter nonsense on a subject you obviously know nothing about. Cheers.
September 18th, 2011 on 11:40 am
I’ve been associated with CRA from the beginning. My Work Schedule is to crazy to be able to commit to a raid guild. I can get called into work at any day of the week. As Military, I end up deployed for a year at a time also. I only raid once a week, but I try and make myself available as a filler for any CRA Brigade that can use me.
As a result, I am part of a very small family guild full of Tradeskillers. My Real-life family is a big part of this smaller guild, and I enjoy the small guild feel. Why should I abandon this small community to raid? The Raid content is entertaining and challenging, but I’m don’t feel like I should abandon my family and friends in the smaller guild. CRA has given me access to the end-game content without having to abandon my small family guild.
These Raid-Teams have worked hard for the progress they have made. Just because they don’t use the Sony in-game team building tools doesn’t make them any less viable as a raid force. You might as well start disqualifying raid-teams that use Ventrilo instead of the ingame Voice Channels. (That’s an in-game team-building tool as well)
September 18th, 2011 on 12:07 pm
I am a backup raider for Brig 11. The main reason I joined a brig is because my guild(which I am an officer of) is not large enough to field a 24 person raid. Now my guild was never intended to be a ‘raid guild’ We are focused more on a family atmosphere. I consider them all to be my online family. We do provide the chance to raid the x2 every other week or so.
But we did have a number of members including myself that loved to raid. Before the server merge I was on LDL. There were many PuR’s on LDL however not all were of a certain quality that raiders expected. We had come across lots of drama with longtime members wanting to raid more and more. Sadley I would see these longtime members and friends leave for some raiding guild.
Now with the CRA I can keep my longtime members and friends without the worry of keeping them happy and wondering whether or not I was going to lose them to a raid guild. I can also satisfy my own desire to raid even if in a backup role.
In short the CRA could form it own entire mega guild of raiders. It is a great service to the CB server that they dont. It would create a lot of unrest in the smaller guilds and potentially tear them apart.
In victory or death,
Miica
Officer of Heritage of the Phoenix
September 18th, 2011 on 1:00 pm
“There are guilds in EQ2….I wonder why there are guilds in eq2…lets see…cause that is how it was intended to be run. There is a GUILD page…to find a guild to join a guild…there is no “find an alliance” page when you start playing the game. No..they wanted us to form and join guilds, to build commraderie, to have a home where you work together…not where you run off and raid w/ whoever and create 15 brigs and basically plague the server.”
Actually, you are partially correct. Guilds were first started as a way for people that actually LIKED each other and wanted to have a way to communicate within game with each other. So, in that aspect, you are absolutely correct. The rest of your suppositions are sadly… mistaken. Guilds were not put into the game for the sole purpose of raiding. That’s not how it’s ‘intended to be. Guilds are there as a ‘convenience’. (And we currently have 12 brigades with 8 of them active at this time…. not 15… just so you have the correct number there, Inqy-girl)
At the time, raiding was not something that was focused on. In FACT, it wasn’t until the Velious era I believe in Everquest 1 that an actual ‘raiding tool’ was put in place where several groups could be put together in a ‘raid formation’. Until that point, it was each group was on it’s own as we fought through the planes of hate and fear, Kael arena, etc… We were just good enough that we were able to coordinate 72+ people in groups outside of a ‘raid format’
The fact that you can’t recruit people into your guild and maintain a viable raiding force (as you are implying by your vituperous posts) indicate there may be other problems in your guild and I would suspect attitudes being one of them. (A stab in the dark, but hey.. I don’t know, as we don’t know who you are..)
Your assertion that there is no comradeship within the hallowed halls of the CRA and within each brigade is brought on by your own self mis-conceptions. I can absolutely assure you that there is a depth of comradeship in those brigades that I did not experience in a some of the handful of guilds I have belonged to over the years. I can also tell you that there are some very tight knit relationships and friendships forged within the CRA that have carried over into areas outside the game. You can’t tell me that happens in Raid Guilds all that often. I happen to love my guild and the people in it. I also have people in Clan Mawr that have absolutely no interest in raiding.
I am the social leader for brigade 1. It is my responsibility to make sure people show up on our raid nights. It is my responsibility to find replacements for people when they step down from the brigade. Brigade 1 has been running now since late Echoes of Faydark/Early Rise of Kunark era. We have had a very stable raid force over the years. I believe there are 19 people that have been there since the formation of Brigade 1. How many raid guilds can said they’ve had that much of a successful retention rate?
So, don’t sit there and tell me that we dont’ have the dedication, the comradeship, the struggles etc, that a raid guild has just because we all don’t happen to share the same guild tag.
Raid progression is just that… Progression. It doesn’t mean you HAVE to be a part of a guild to form a raid force. It just means you have a team of dedicated people willing to put out the time and effort to work out the kinks and progress.
If you are one of the handful of people that have been throwing their rattle out of the pram over on Crushbone about CRA, then it comes to no surprise now that you’re trying this. A small group of people have been crying about CRA for years….We’re still here and now people are coughing in our dust as we pass them by. So it comes down to this… Move over and continue to whinge… or get your act together and pass us up.
“Beep Beep”
September 18th, 2011 on 1:22 pm
The fact that you can’t recruit people into your guild and maintain a viable raiding force (as you are implying by your vituperous posts) indicate there may be other problems in your guild and I would suspect attitudes being one of them. (A stab in the dark, but hey.. I don’t know, as we don’t know who you are..)
wow Vituperous… I had to look that one up!
September 18th, 2011 on 1:34 pm
For those who complain about the size of CRA… it’s a simple supply/demand concept.
Inqy Girl, if the need and demand for the type of raid team that CRA provides wasn’t there, then it simply wouldn’t exist.
You say that CRA has swallowed the server… well I guess it means that the majority of the server supports CRA and it’s methods.
The fact of the matter is, you find leadership, team work and comaraderie in CRA that is unparalleled.
Those who offer less, should expect to lose their raiders to CRA because they simply offer more.
If you don’t like CRA, offer people more! There are strong guilds that survive on CB outside of CRA, if you’re not one of them, look to see what CRA and stronger guilds have that you don’t, instead of trying to trivialize and attack what you obviously don’t understand.
CRA is part of the server environment, and thus, part of the server progression. It’s the nature of the server, whether you like it or not.
The creator of this website could have named it serverprogress.com and you’d still be complaining that CRA does not deserve a spot. the fact that it is called “guildprogress” means nothing.
You want to measure progress on CB, well… CRA is part of it. Get over yourself and try to do better if you don’t like that they are higher than you.
CRA doesn’t succeed by cheating, they don’t beat you by some sleight of hand… they beat you because they are better in one way or another. Improve, pass them, and stop whining.
September 18th, 2011 on 1:39 pm
Well like i said i am the raid leader for In Harms Way and yes i used to think that i hated cra back in tso before i moved over to everfrost server and then when dov went live i joined cra because there was just not many if any tank spots open in raid guilds and i would have to say that for you to say they plagued the server since they started. would be totally incorrect and i would say that you need to join cra and see it for your self before you say something is bad because that something is different. that something different might be what makes a top end player quit the game when he or she can not find someone to raid with that is actually clearing content because lets face it all but one brigade is killing high end content and most of their teams have cleared easy mode. so that in its self says a lot for cra good job to all of cra and please keep my guild pushing harder to progress and make shit died.
September 18th, 2011 on 1:52 pm
I am hardly stuck on myself, so the argument of “get over youself” is just silly. My guild is a casual raiding guild that is doing just fine progress wise and turnover wise… meaning we get people in and they stay. I wasnt implying that my guild was one that was oh so destroyed or anything by the CRA. This is a argument in general about the CRA and what they have done to the server in general. It isnt a small handful of people that have an issue with the CRA.
Regardless, you are all entitled and deserve to be recognized for your progress..no question there. However, yes we look at the guildprogress site as just that guild progress. The person who runs the site has said himself he isnt sure how to handle alliances. Which is ultimately what the CRA is. There are people that love the cra and what it stands for and there are those that dont. That will never change.
Simply stated that smaller casual raiding guilds that have been through rough times and stuck it out should also be recognized on guildprogress.com as a guild..and not be competing with numerous brigades of an alliance.
Regardless, CRA is here to stay, no question there, and smaller raiding or casual guilds are here to stay. Look at it from a smaller casual raiding guilds standpoint…versus the CRA..can you actually do that and still come back with this ” get over yourself” attitude?
People form casual raiding guilds for that, they get the casual aspect and the raiding aspect. They work extremely hard to keep that going…when they could say ” Oh screw it ill go raid with CRA rather then trying to keep this guild going…casual and raiding.”
September 18th, 2011 on 2:30 pm
@Inqy-girl: Alright I’ll try another avenue with you since you just aren’t seeming to get this any other way. What would you then say, if I had each of the RLs of our eight teams form up guilds just as many of the other “guilds” do on this server that allow folks to join their team without leaving their guilds? More than a handful do it, I’d actually say more like over a dozen do it. We’d fit right in line with your so called “guild” progression at that point wouldn’t we? We’d be under different guild names at that point. Would that make you happy? What’s in a name?
September 18th, 2011 on 2:31 pm
Inqy-Girl, what exactly Has CRA “done to the server in general?”
You state that “smaller casual raiding guilds that have been through rough times and stuck it out should also be recognized on guildprogress.com as a guild..and not be competing with numerous brigades of an alliance.”
I have a couple of points concerning this:
How does allowing CRA brigades to be listed, in anyway, take away recognition of your guilds accomplishments? If you can clear x number of hard mode mobs, this accomplishment is acknowledged here.
Do you actually think that CRA brigs don’t struggle? While some brigades have managed to be pretty stable, member wise, others have had quite a struggle maintaining a consistant raid force to allow progression. Brigade 2, for example, has spent most of this year struggling with content due to sizable holes in their raid force.
This thread has demonstrated a couple things. First, There isn’t that much crossover between most brigades with players. CRA brigades aren’t made up of progression guild members and duplicating kills, Each brigade are progressing on their own. Even Inqy-Girl acknowledges CRA’s progress.
This boils any objection to CRA using this site down to two reasons. People that argue the semantic of this site being called “guild progress” and CRA is not a guild. The other reason would be people with personal axes to grind against CRA. The former is true, in that CRA is not a guild but any progression list that doesn’t actually include all groups progressing really limits the value of such a site to a pure ego-centric nature rather than anything of value. The latter reason deserves no consideration at all.
September 18th, 2011 on 2:55 pm
Just want to throw my 2 cents in as well. The only requirement to create a guild is 6 unguilded people in a group. No leadership qualifications at all. I used to be in a casusal raiding guild and quite honestly it came down to too many guilds going after the population as all were supposed raiding guilds. What I had found was alot of attitude and no substance. Got tired of it and went off on my own. I was skeptical of CRA at first. After raiding with these very good people this was the best situation for me personally. I have to work, I cannot hardcore raid. So leaving all attitudes behind me and ineptness, I have been raiding in CRA for quite a long time now. It works very well. What I think should be the issue here in the forefront is progress. Let’s have that healthy dosse of competition that includes raid forces such as CRA against raiding guilds. Let’s see where everyone ranks against each other. Why omit one ’style’ of force, how about we just get after it and see where it all ends up?
Just one other thing, it is this very attitude displayed by some about CRA that drove me away from larger guilds in the first place.
Have a good day!
~Dillrod
September 18th, 2011 on 2:57 pm
Inqy-Girl
September 18th, 2011 on 1:52 pm
[quote]
…………..However, yes we look at the guildprogress site as just that guild progress…..
[/quote]
Actually, there is zero on Guildprogress.com that tracks guild progress. Zero. SOE has that tool in place with guild levels. If Guildprogress.com really was interested in tracking guild progress, they would implement a tracking system with guild level and for guild status in Everquest 2. Yet another tool that SOE put in for guild tracking.
What GuildProgress.com does do is track Raid kills. Notice, it’s not guild kills. It’s Raid kills. If it was guild kills, every instance both easy and hard and every contested mob should be listed. Because that is Guild Progress.
Saying the site is called Guildprogress.com and then saying only guilds are allowed. Is equivalent to saying the game is called Everquest, so the only experience you should get in game is from quests.
September 18th, 2011 on 3:00 pm
It’s interesting to see how this disscussion as tunred into. Actually out of 66-67 comments, 58-60 of them belong to CRA and they all basicly said ”you are jealous, so shut the fuck up”.
That being said, it’s clear that all of you here from CRA don’t have any arguments because you keep attacking the messanger instead of the message being said.
Most of the server recognize you are working hard to clear your stuff and such, I personnaly don’t have any issue with that, but you all need to agree that WE don’t care of the individual progression of your teams.
That’s why I think CRA should be listed as a SINGLE entity on this website with the listing of their highest kills instead of all those of your raid forces.
I think it’s the best and only fair options according to the goal of this website and for all the guilds here.
A quick last point, I know for sure that CRA been around since the begenning of the game and you guys been using this website recently only. No offense to anyone but your angry attitude make your organisation look lke an adolescent during an identity crisis. You guys are fighting for something you’ve never been using before, what’s the pint? I’d say get over and move on.
September 18th, 2011 on 3:16 pm
humm and 90% of the negative comments about cra comes form templiers des tenebres, a non raiding guild, and revenge, a few ex cra people who are all in templiers des tenebres sorry if my french is bad its not my primary language. This is all about your leader getting the boot from cra because he was caught recruiting off their app boards. Conme on this is all sour grapes by 5-6 people. just telling it like it is.
ps
im not in cra anymore, but it makes me laugh at all the haters since most of them got their start there.
really
September 18th, 2011 on 3:26 pm
You are pathetic ”really” you are just showing to all people here what I was saying previously, you attack the messenger and not the message.
You can laugh as much as you can from our leader banned from CRA but if I recall correctly, CRA as never seen a sk as good as he was when he was in CRA, just saying.
I’ll warn you once bud, attacking players language is racism which is not acceptable in 2011 anywhere in the world. If you really wana go this way fine, people will just ignore your poor comments because of your lack of civism.
My suggestion remain the same as Darkholis, Prizix and a few other sugested, we don’t care of the individual progression of the team and I think you guys should be listed as a single entity, period.
September 18th, 2011 on 3:37 pm
Selnok, Most comments haven’t been attacking the messenger but the message. Actually, your argument is probably the only viewpoint worth discussion so far.
The reality is, Most CRA brigades are comprised of unique raiders. As mentioned, there is some limited crossover but pretty much all brigades are comprised of 20+ raiders that only raid with that brigade. If the individual brigades were just the same raid team with different toons, I’d agree that a single CRA listing would be appropriate, but that’s simply not the case.
September 18th, 2011 on 3:41 pm
Funny the poster that replied previously to me with the quote “you attack the messenger and not the message” was under the name kymiko are you the same person. Cause seems to me the same person under two differnt names posting on the same subject would be “pathetic”.
good luck
September 18th, 2011 on 3:43 pm
I agree on your point that each is different and rules with different sets of rules. Correct me if I’m wrong on anything.
On the other hand, listing CRA as a single entity can be tunred to your advantage. How?
Lets imagine a player looking for a raid force. I’m sure a lot of them will take a look at guild progress and other references before taking a final pick, correct? Let’s say we have CRA listed as one thing with your highest kills. That/these players will see CRA isn’t bad in terms of ranking. So with a certain interest, people will likely come on your website and take a more serious look.
September 18th, 2011 on 3:55 pm
I’ve been with CRA from just about the start. Thanks to CRA, I’ve been playing this game for, what, six years? All that done in my little guild of 5 people. They crack up cause we’re 5 people with trophy heads in our guild hall. I have watched Crushbone’s attitude towards us shift from indifferent to making fun of us and now apparently to be threatened and angry at us.
It used to be people wouldn’t even raid with us because they said we didn’t know what we were doing. People said we were a pickup raid of non-skilled players. Open chat used to frequently have x-players baggin on us and making fun of us.
I don’t care if you don’t list us on this site. Other’s in CRA might get a little down, but for me, I just want to take down content. Yeah, I do take some pride when we take something down, cause I was around when we would have “elite” and “hardcore” players ditch us 30min in cause we died too much.
Take us off the site, list us as one entity, whatever you need to do to make ya feel better, that’s fine. Tonight, we’re gonna form up. We’re gonna try to fill the roster and then we’re gonna attack content.
For those that have been cool us, thanks. I appreciate it. Get with me after this and I’ll sign your year book.
September 18th, 2011 on 3:57 pm
That is because they are creating different accounts in an attempt to down thumb our kills. I find it kind of funny that while in the CRA they were completely FINE with how we do things. Now that none of them are, all of a sudden it’s a big no no.. Really people?
September 18th, 2011 on 3:59 pm
So this is all coming from Revenge wanting to remove 8 teams so they can jump to page 1 and feel like they are better than they are. This is what I am seeing.
September 18th, 2011 on 4:04 pm
As co- guild leader in harms way I have raided with brig 11. I came back to game After last expansion went live and wanted to raid again. Brig 11 brought flexible raid scheduled times for me because real life owns all right? But best of all I was introduced to so many players. Some players great and some needing to enhance their current play skills. The leadership from brig 11 has been outstanding. We have faced many adventures and struggles that other raid teams have and always overcome them. Raiding with brig 11 has kept me playing in this game and I am grateful to being apart of a great raiding team that the CRA brings to this server.
September 18th, 2011 on 4:05 pm
As co- guild leader in harms way I have raided with brig 11. I came back to game After last expansion went live and wanted to raid again. Brig 11 brought flexible raid scheduled times for me because real life owns all right? But best of all I was introduced to so many players. Some players great and some needing to enhance their current play skills. The leadership from brig 11 has been outstanding. We have faced many adventures and struggles that other raid teams have and always overcome them. Raiding with brig 11 has kept me playing in this game and I am grateful to being apart of a great raiding team that the CRA brings to this server…….
September 18th, 2011 on 4:11 pm
Are you really sure you wana go this way Val?
September 18th, 2011 on 4:23 pm
I can say for sure that it isnt only members of the guild “Revenge” that are here commenting against the CRA having multiple spots on the rankings list.
As I for one am not in that guild.
September 18th, 2011 on 4:33 pm
So we’re getting it now?
Personnal attacks? from CRA?
Nice show guys.
All we are saying is if you want to be here get a guild together, and be listed once.
Even get 12 guilds up, but you know what? you’ll lose half of your player base, cause you’re not any better than all of us, working hard, getting the guild to level, getting set-up together.
But you wanted to take it to personal attacks.
Just saying, it shows who you are.
September 18th, 2011 on 4:36 pm
ahhh …. I think I see now ….
I have just been reading through all the posts (what else do you do at 0500 when everyone’s asleep lol) and I have noticed, especially earlier on, that there are alot of posts from Darkholis and friends.
Yesterday morning Dark was ranting and raving in CRA chat over the unfairness of it all for at least an hour. Although there is no proof, I am 99.9% certain that this all started over ’sour grapes’ as someone else posted.
I believe, if this ‘vote’ was to be decided properly, leave the Crushbone Server out of the decision making process to avoid emotions clouding the issue.
my original thought stands though
I would be happy if we remained a part of this list, however, if people think, for one reason or another, we don’t belong, it’s their loss, not ours.
Cheers and Beers
Daws
September 18th, 2011 on 4:46 pm
Dark you really need to give you self some dignity you know as well as i know and anyone else who has raided in a cra team that they are about having fun and seeing the content just like any raid guild.
September 18th, 2011 on 4:52 pm
i agree toes let people from other servers step in and say something because this is just getting out of hand. we are all here to have fun and raid with the teams we raid with and some of the cra teams really care about how they stack up against the rest of the server. so if you are not on crushbone please lets hear from you but if you are then you have too much to gain from it so shut the hell up and let the admin’s do there job and let the other servers say what they think about it who knows there might be some other points of view that none of us are seeing because we all care too much and are too emotionaly atached to what the out come maybe
September 18th, 2011 on 5:42 pm
Alright Val, you wana be an asshole, it’s my turn now. Yes it’s a useless post in the current thread but I’m tired of all the bullshit going around.
First of all, I’M the ONLY responsible of the crisis with CRA atm, my guild has NOT done a single shit against CRA, NOT A SINGLE ONE, clear enough? Lol, lots of my guildies don’t even know that CRA exists so.
Second thing, I’ll go through my whole raid history on crushbone since I transferred from Oasis.
Alright, so when I first came over CB, I was level 73 and was looking for an active guild (my previous guild in Oasis was dead) so I looked around via the ‘’U’’ command and searched. I ended up choosing Cohort Chaleibeus which is a really nice guild with good players and such. I was also interested in doing raids since I’ve been raiding during 8 years as a sk in EQ1 on the Karana server. So I ended up joining CRA because CC was a guild part of CRA. So once done, I started raiding with CC aka brigade 6 and started to gain experience in EQ2 raids. Eventually, I grew tired and started to look for something better in CRA, so I went with Brigade 11 lead by Shadowbourne. I had a blast raiding with them at the beginning and such and eventually, I became the MT of the raid force. As you all know, lots of players likes to help and do more than just show up and kill, so I started helping him with recruits, spam in chat and usual shit. After few months I noticed I was the top geared player of that team….having T3/T2 SF armor when the rest of the raid was struggling with T1/T2 and that I was helping them to get them gear without ANY SINGLE benefits… so when I saw the brigade 7 dying and looking for a leader, I jumped on the occasion to do what I was looking for, leading raids. So far, leading brigade 7 been my best experience within CRA because of the players, the politics behind was a fucking mess. For example, every single raid leader of CRA HAVE AND NEED to agree with everything being said by Valesai even if it’s retarded, so if he says the sky is pink, they all need to say so. That’s one of the main reasons why I dropped CRA, I was sick to be ruled by a dictator aka Valesai (‘ll go deeper on his case later) And for those of CRA who will prolly try to say ‘’he dropped because he sucked as leader’’ lol, 7th cleared all of SF EM content in 2 weeks including a contested mob CRA has never killed during SF. So like I said, I dropped the mess to do my own stuff apart, quietly without drama or dictatorship, which ended up with the founding of my raid guild Revenge.
Third point now, Valesai’s case. When I’ve been promoted CRA brig leader, first thing I did was to check out the archives of that organisation and see what kind of people they really are. I spend many hours and discovered the whole shit with Brimstone and Zealus when CRA had recently formed up. I also took time to understand all the rules of this organisation and also how did the others got banned and why. Of course, I saw how Valesai was dealing with the drama and the stuff touching his organisation….let’s say I’ve been surprised at that time. Lol, the guy is asking every leader to do what he wants and support his foolish ideas. For example, No raid leader of CRA can do SLR, omg, what a retarded thing. I did some SLR (in the SF era)and he got frustrated and I can suppose that’s because A) he’s too dumb to do SLRs by himself or B) just jealous of my idea. (I was one grouping SF raid zones and selling the gear) To come back to the recent events, I created Revenge pretty a week or 2 after I dropped CRA leadership and I assume it was a strategic mistake to move on that fast and of course, they slowly started to watch my moves, my guild, my recruiting and all the shit, in fact, they played the spy game. At a certain point (summers are hard for raid guilds) it was hard for me to keep up on recruiting and I started looking on the CRA website for applicants. Yes I did it!!! Their rules are unclear and only states that no outside raid can recruit CRA members. So I assumed and I’m right that applicants ARE and remain APPLICANTS and that they do not belong to CRA in anyways. Those are just players showing interest in their organisation, period. Then I started to contact those applicants being ignored for weeks by CRA and offered them to come my way, and oh surprise, I got a lot of positive feedback from them for being finally noticed by somebody lol. Basicly, I exploited a flaw that Val been too retarded too see and got recruits coming my way using CRA website. Worst mistake of Val for that flaw was to let all applicants see the other apps, so any retard on server could easily create and account in 5 mins and check out which players/class are seeking a raid team. Of course, somebody noticed it and Val suspended my subscription to the CRA website. Then I prepared arguments including all the explanations above. Basicly, he was accusing me of recruiting in CRA, not of making abuse of CRA tools lol when he did NOTHING to deal with Malenn (current leader of In Harms Way) that almost took a whole CRA team in his guild (that is brigade 11) Worse than that, this guy is still raiding within CRA ranks and gearing up his alts. Lol I guess he has been more sneaky than me. Like I was saying, I explained all that crap to Valesai on the public forums of his website and I asked for proofs (the famous logs from active CRA member he pretend I was trying to recruit in tells) to justifies his accusations. I wrote word for word ‘’A fail to answer all my questions and to show me those famous logs you are talking about Val will clearly show I was right and that your accusations were bullshit’’ LOL, that’s the funny part, that guy which is 35-40 years old in real life acted like a 10 years old kid and rather than answering politely to my statement, he kicked me. And no, I’m far from being the first one, Valesai always acted like a god superior to us mortals. As another proof, he sent Marina and few others of CRA to deal me rather than dealing with me himself lol. Much more interesting about the guy, his picture on the website been the sergent in Full Metal Jacket for couple years, the best symbol of self-proclaimed autory. I think this picture is enough to describe the guy and to see how he consider himself in game vs in real life. Later on the September 17, I’ve been engaged by a CRA brigade leader (I’ll keep the name anonymus since I respect that person) and talked with that person about the shit going on and when I asked for proofs, oh surprise, I got the following answer ‘’ you know Dark it’s all confidential’’ but why? Prolly because it shows that Val had NOTHING to support his shit as usual lol.
To conclude this long ass post, I’ll say again that I have nothing towards CRA in any ways, I’m one of the person who think the concept is really interesting because it provide a chance to smaller guilds or people that can’t raid by themselves to raid at least once and enjoy the same feeling we love in raiding guilds. The issue I have is with Valesai ONLY and with the way he handle all the issues touching his organistion and players. I’ll gladly continue play with whoever is still willing to do groups/raids with since I have nothing against you guys. My final point concerning the current topic is still to have CRA listed as a single thing for all the reasons stated already.
September 18th, 2011 on 6:09 pm
“I’m one of the person who think the concept is really interesting because it provide a chance to smaller guilds or people that can’t raid by themselves to raid at least once and enjoy the same feeling we love in raiding guilds. The issue I have is with Valesai ONLY”
enough said.
It’s my belief that it is better to remain silent and have people think you are a fool than to open your mouth and provide them with proof.
Cheers and Beers
Daws
September 18th, 2011 on 6:24 pm
I’d have to disagree with most of what you said Dark.
First, if you think we all agree with what Val says, you are just plain wrong. Just because we don’t discuss many things in public, or council, view, doesn’t mean they don’t happen. He runs a great many things by me and other Brigade Leaders before he publishes them, and many times they don’t even get to that point. Of course he does publish stuff without talking with anyone, but that also is his right.
Second. SLR. This was a decision made when CRA first started, way before you were even involved with us. Because we were an alliance, and the only alliance on Crushbone (that I know of) at the time. We did not want to be known on the server as the group who sold loot. Plus we did not want to delay our raiders while the leader took 5-10+ minutes (remember no call of veteran at the time, so people had to get to the zone, and zone in) out of raid time to sell a piece of loot. SLR is just like DKP (at least I think that’s the term). CRA does not do it.
Third. CRA does not spy on other groups. But raiders, members and applicants do come to us, or more specifically to Val, saying so and so tried to recruit me. Personally, I’ve only had a few raiders ever approach me saying that some group tried to recruit them. And in all those cases, it’s been because they grouped with them for an instance, and didn’t see one of the elite raid guild tags on them. It’s probably a problem that’s been happening for all guilds, and is not just a CRA issue. But in CRA, with situations that have happened in the past, if we get people that say they are being recruited from members that have left CRA, we don’t give those members free reign. We drop them and move on.
I respect you Dark. But you are making far too many assumptions in your last post. And am I saying Val was right in saying what he did in his posts? No, and I’ve told him that. But a lot of what you just posted is false.
September 18th, 2011 on 7:18 pm
Dark…
I like you and I’m really saddened by the whole debacle.
But… you came to CRA’s website and recruited from that site. You knew full and well you were playing with semantics. Interestingly enough, your assertion that you were recruiting only people that had waited weeks and weeks is a falsehood and has been proven so.
Valesai didn’t ’sic’ me on you to answer for him. You were in the cra chat channel creating a huge ruckus and no one else was online at the time to talk to you.
Believe what you will.
Take the story to EQ2flames and “rate a retard” forums if you are that bothered by your removal from the CRA community.
Dark… rather than make yourself look even more foolish than you already have on this thread, you need to accept the fact that you messed up and need to let it go. You know the rules of the CRA. You were a part of the leadership there. You were thinking only of yourself and not the other people in your guilds when you admittedly used an ‘exploit’ in the system. So not only did you screw yourself over, you screwed your guild members over too.
Right now, this discussion revolves around whether or not a brigade in CRA (And ultimately other alliances world wide) are to be allowed a space on this site to record their progress in competition against other raid forces.
The only thing we don’t have as a brigade in CRA is a common guild tag across the board. But… we take on content, we LEGITIMATELY beat the content and we move on. We have requirements (as you well know) to participate on the various brigades just as ‘guild only’ raid force does.. (although how many on the progressions list are strictly guild only?) And if you don’t meet or maintain those requirements or improve, you are let go from the raid force just as you would be in a raiding guild’s raid force.
If alliance groups are not allowed to post their progress here then I can think of a couple of guilds ahead of us progression wise that shouldn’t be listed either as they utilise members from “sister guilds” as well.
Careful, because this is a slippery slope. The only difference is, CRA is open and above board about the nature of their raid forces. Some of the others might not be so forthcoming.
September 18th, 2011 on 7:58 pm
In Harms way did in no way take people that was not currently in our guild already.Most of us raided with brig 11 because it filled our raid style and days avaliable to raid. There hasn’t been a raid leader or a raid leadership team that I would put up against Brig 11. Solid leadership and huge respect goes their way from me and My Guild. There was a heads up to brig 11 raid leader and social leader when questions first came up about In Harms Way was going to rebuild. Many nights spent up late talking back in forth on Teamspeak. And they were excited to see the Rebuild. Unlike others that may have thrown a fit or excuses. Everyone had option to stay in Brig 11 or come to In Harms Way. I in fact stayed several weeks in Brig 11 untill My work schedule prevented me from doing those days.
September 18th, 2011 on 10:22 pm
If it wasn’t for CRA a LOT of us would not be raiding. Fact is CRA gives a lot of people the actual chance to find a regular spot with a raid force who is progressing through the content. CRA is a legitimate as any raid guild on any server.
It’s as simple as that.
September 18th, 2011 on 10:25 pm
The only thing I got from Dark’s rant is that he is definitely not un-biased…
September 18th, 2011 on 11:03 pm
To get back to the original thread, my opinion is that the admins need to decide whether they want guildprogress.com to reflect the progress of all groups that raid on a regular basis (set schedule, core of members that show up all the time, etc.) or just guilds. And if only guild progression is to be considered, would kills that happen with a lot of backups or fillers from other guilds be voted down? There are a lot of guilds that have to bring outside help because they don’t have constant numbers or lack certain key classes.
Personally I hope they choose to reflect all progression, guilds and alliances alike. For one thing that’s a more realistic statistic of what people are killing regularly. And if they chose to discount kills that are not 100% with a single guild, then the list would be a lot shorter.
September 18th, 2011 on 11:39 pm
This website is used to track guilds progress on raids they have cleared. who the hell cares if
a raid guild or group of dedicated raiders band together without the title of a guild nameto clear raid instances.
Either way they are clearing the raids and its being listed. This is a good tracking system to see where your raid guild or brigade stands and it pushes everyone to work harder in their raids.
I say leave as it is if your ranking on the guild progress is lower than a CRA brigade than push harder.
that’s what you should be doing instead of complaining that no.8 on the list should actually be no.4 if you remove CRA brigades. (numbers were only used as an example)
CRA should be listed as they have done the hard yards forming and clearing raid content just as much as any other raid guilds.
stop nit picking that we aren’t a guild at the end of the day were all here to have fun and clear raid instances.
Thats my two cents for all this debacle
Spellsing Brigade 9 – Raider
September 19th, 2011 on 2:14 am
As yukinoh stated, all of the Brig 8 Raiders, are mains. Yukinoh, why quite polite and hardly ever raises his voice or yell’s is quite demanding of his Brigade. Do you job, do it right or you wont come back. That includes doing the extra work to learn rotations, improve on rotations, research AA’s, etc. Hell, to even DPS any on my Defiler, I spent hours working out rotations. Heck, I even spent time research and testing out healing rotations.
Frankly, I believe people are threatened by “nobodies” being able to beat content and do it with even more style a lot of others have.
September 19th, 2011 on 10:17 am
Let me see if I understand the concern with CRA brigades being included in guildprogress.com at all or as separate entities.
First let me remind everyone, CRA is a “group” of guilds that align together under separate brigades with a separate but consistent, dedicated raid force other than the exception of one brigade who is pug.
What I’m hearing as the argument to exclude CRA brigades is that they don’t have one guild tag so they really don’t qualify for guildprogress listing at all or possibly with only one listed as a representation of all separate brigades.
Ok, let’s play the word game folks … it’s guildprogress.com, not guildsprogress.com so basically only the “guild” from ALL servers, or the “guild” per server with the most kills (first kills) should be listed to show progress in killing raid content. Then, it would be guild (singular, not pluarl) progress. No?
Was that the “real” intent of guildprogress.com? I don’t think so, but then the administrator could probably answer that more accurately than any of the rest of us.
Final note, I believe that brigades should be included and listed separately, just as multiple guild(s) on each server are listed separately.
Just my two cents worth.
Julee,
defiler – CRA-Brigade 2
(fill-in to full dedicated roster)
September 19th, 2011 on 10:25 am
CRA is a raid force. Guildprogress tracks raid progress by listing kills raids have made. CRA kills the same mobs as any other guild.
Each CRA team is a seperate entity from the others. We share a website, basic major rules, and communication networks. Really that is the extent of the similarity, we each have seperate leaders, and each leader has their own rules for their team within the major rules for the whole. Each team has their own way of doing thing. Each team makes they’re kills by their own merits win or fail. Sure, some kill strats are shared, but only because we do work together to help make each other better. Though that is not really very different from looking up a strat or video that is pasted all over the web for everyone to see if you get stuck on a mob. I’m sure nearly every raid force has looked up at least some info that others have gathered. But often with my team we get to a new mob and though we don’t have a clue what it will do to us, we work and die and rethink and die some more until we figure it out. That is what all raids do.
I believe each raid force deserves to be recognized for the work they put into raiding if they have the desire to post on this website which is available for everyone.
Though if it does have to come to a vote, I believe Tinkle Toes is right and it should not come from Crushbone. A vote from players of other servers would be most appropriate, or it would probably not be too difficult to find and contact leaders of other forces thorghout the game for a general consensus on their thoughts.
September 19th, 2011 on 11:41 am
I think the listings should remain as is… but if you decide to drop the brigades, we can just assign a guild to each brigade. There are a few guilds that run large percentages of each brigade.. Brig 3 could be Legends.. Brig 9 Requiem for a Dream.. etc.. It wouldn’t be entirely accurate .. but at least we could keep our standings.. (and those with nafarious reasons for disputing it wouldn’t gain standing by simply disqualifying their competition.)
September 19th, 2011 on 12:38 pm
There is definitely personal feelings fueling this issue. Reading all the posts will reveal that clearly. The only issue that matters here is whether CRA should be listed separately by Brigade, listed singularly as one raid force, or not listed at all. All other comments are off topic.
If the decision is made to list CRA as a single raid force or to de-list completely, then be ready to remove or demote kills of every other listing that grabs people from out of guild to help fill out a raid. If the REAL issue is tracking a GUILD’S raid progress (and I don’t think it is), then any time a guild grabs even a single person from outside to help on a raid that raid should not count. Is that really where you believe this site should be headed? I don’t.
This reminds me so much of people calling for other classes to be nerfed simply because their own class can’t do the same things. Sadly, what it really reminds me of is high school.
My personal opinion is that nobody should have a vote in this. The site creator/administrator knows what the purpose of this site is. Their opinion is really the only one that matters. If they want us here, then we will remain, if they don’t, then we won’t.
Mezme
Brigade 8
PS – It occurs to me that maybe I should create a listing for my guild and then tag all of the Brig 8 kills for my own guild, since we were there. Somehow I don’t think that would make anyone happy, but yet it would meet the “requirements” as set forth by some people.
September 19th, 2011 on 1:45 pm
After reading is entire thread it’s obvious there are only a handful of people with a personal grievance against CRA that want to CENSOR the progression thread, and several Anon posts backing each other up! What does that tell you?
I’ll put my faith in the Admin’s of this site that they won’t allow censorship because a few people are angry at CRA.
Maestro Zagiel – Brig 11