To separate, or not to separate?
by Xxav on April 21, 2009, 9:16 pm, under World of Warcraft
I’ve received a few emails suggesting that the 10 and 25 man Ulduar content be separate. While this is relatively easy for me to do, I was wondering what everyone thought on this.
If I did separate them, Ulduar 10 and Ulduar 25 will essentially appear on the site as separate “eras.” As a result, there would be separate standings for 10 and 25 man Ulduar. Ulduar 25 would be placed on the front page as the default “era.” You could, of course, still navigate to the separate eras via the drop down menu on the charts.
Thoughts? 
EDIT: They are now separate!
April 21st, 2009 on 9:17 pm
Come to think of it, I should find a better term to use besides era
It’s a term that’s been used internally on the site for a while.
April 21st, 2009 on 9:58 pm
I think they should be separated.
April 21st, 2009 on 10:04 pm
Absolutely! Please do it soon! I am bummed to see that guilds that are only working on 10 man content are ranked higher than guilds only working on 25 man. There could be arguments made either way which is more difficult, but I think all would agree 25 man is typically the slower of the two to progress. I think having them ranked independently of each other is the only fair way to do it.
I was about to pull your badge off my website for this very reason. We are the #3 guild for 25 man content (what we focus on) yet are ranked #9 on the server because of the guilds only doing 10 man content.
Thanks for asking for input!
April 21st, 2009 on 10:09 pm
Alright, I’ve been convinced. I just separated them and have started recalculating rankings.
April 22nd, 2009 on 2:46 am
Two Ranking Tables.
1 for 10 man content.
2 for 25 man content.
Would make more sense to me
April 22nd, 2009 on 7:45 am
Ah shame, I kind of liked the combined scoring.
One thing I hated about WowJutsu while doing naxx was that a guild which downed Sarth25 with no drakes was ranked above a guild that had downed Malygos10.
Not right.
But a lot of guilds (my own being one of them) are doing 10 man and 25 man Ulduar at the moment. Seeing overall progression was quite nice.
There may be some balancing of points between 10 and 25 man to be done but I’d like to see a guild who’s done some 10 man hard modes ranked above a guild that’s cleared 25 man normal modes though.
Not a big deal to be honest, just now I’m not sure which badge to put on our web site. We’re well ranked on our server for 25 and 10 man.
April 22nd, 2009 on 11:45 am
Can always use both badges
By the way, once I get some free time I plan on making a couple variations of the badge with options to include more than one era ( so it would essentially become a wide or tall banner ), recent activity, and maybe PvP.
April 22nd, 2009 on 12:13 pm
i think it was better combined.
April 22nd, 2009 on 6:07 pm
I agree with wheat together was nice.
April 22nd, 2009 on 6:10 pm
I think the switch is good; I agree with those that disliked 10-man guilds ranked above 25-man guilds. An option to combine the two might be nice, but keeping them separate allows for better ‘apples’ to ‘apples’ comparisons.
April 22nd, 2009 on 8:27 pm
Ideally, I would like to see an “overall” still as the default, with the ability to split it down between 10 man and 25 man to see if you are mainly a 10 or 25 man raiding guild to see where you stand in those areas.
April 22nd, 2009 on 8:33 pm
That is a good idea. However, doing it that way would require a bit of time redesigning a lot of the internal magic of the site. It could be done though.
Perhaps I will throw a poll up to see what the majority would like to see. Once the server mess has been sorted out (tonight hopefully) I will do just that.
Thanks for the feedback so far
April 22nd, 2009 on 9:39 pm
Hey,
I love the fact that you seperated them. This is very useful as some guilds don’t run a formal 10 man. According to blizzard, 10man is a way to see lore and finish the game, but the designers very much intended raiding to still be a 25 man game. They said this very same thing early on in the WotLK development.
take sports for example…
You don’t get a trophy for the combined accompliments of major and minor teams. Only within their respective class. If you have an awesome 25 man and 10 man team, you can post both accomplishments to your site…
I say keep it the way it is
April 23rd, 2009 on 11:46 am
I think it’s good to have them separated but it would be nice to have a cumulative score in the guild window that accounts for both heroics and not heroics.
would be easy to add it next to the guild name and the webpage may actually give the option to sort the guilds by accomplishment in that era (as it is now), alfabetically or by total score.
April 23rd, 2009 on 12:12 pm
Im glad they are seperated… guilds that think they are progressing because they have ten people that can down a boss are kidding themselves.. even the 25 man boss fights are different and have harder concepts. 25 man should be the gaging factor for guild progression.
April 24th, 2009 on 1:48 am
I think they should be combined. How hard would it be to generate separate links from the main, combined list to show the two different paths? While sure, ppl doing 10 are gonna go faster than ppl doing 25 usually .. what about the people doing both? They are probably going slower in the two separate lists, but faster by total points.
April 24th, 2009 on 4:30 pm
I think the changes made are good ones. 10 man Ulduar is EASY MODE and should in no way even come close in value to 25 man. Blizzard has acknowledged they made some mistakes with EoE and OS with 10 man actually being more difficult due to raid makeup limitations but they have expressly made point that this is not the case in Ulduar and from what I have seen, it is quite obvious that 10 man is much easier on all encounters than 25 man is.
April 25th, 2009 on 4:46 am
The changes are great, I love it.
There is only one problem, at least on our server “Der Mithrilorden”
Some guilds show up double, f.ex. “Cøre ” also as “Cøre ” and “Amicitiâ ” as “Amicitiâ ” and Wächter des Phoenix as
Wächter des Phoenix . Seems your system has some trouble with the german ä,ö,ü and accent on some letters.
Regards
Yuko
April 25th, 2009 on 7:46 am
I see what your saying. This is another side effect of being moved to a different web server with slightly different settings. I will fix this later today once I get off work! Thanks for pointing it out.
May 2nd, 2009 on 7:48 am
An additional thought on this. I’m in a guild that only does 10 man progression. We’re a small group of friends (everyone knows at least two other people in person) who are moderate WoW players. Many of our raid experiences date back to MC. We’re pretty serious players and raid 2-3 nights a week. I was looking at my servers raid progression and saw that we were #26 for the server and #9 for Horde on the server. I was pretty excited by these numbers. Then I wondered how many of these people ahead of us were 25 man guilds in ilevel 213 gear out of T7-25Man. I looked at all the guilds and only one (an alliance guild) was a pure 10-man raiding guild. All of the others had cleared through Maly25.
It’d be really cool to have a filtering option to exclude guilds that are clearly on the 25 man track from the 10 man list so us small guilds can see our compression in relation to other guilds of our size.
May 6th, 2009 on 9:13 am
I just love your weblog! Very nice post! Still you can do many things to improve it.
May 16th, 2009 on 2:09 pm
I think a lot of guilds have many different ways they want to see the data, and usually the way that is most favorable to them is the way they want to see it. Those focusing on 25-man content want to see their progression against other 25-man guilds. Those focusing on both would like combined rankings. Those focusing on 10s would like rankings reflecting their efforts. I think the way to satisfy the most people will require a code change.
As a 10-man raiding guild, I think my preference would be to see rankings against other guilds who focus solely on 10-man content. That being said, it’s hard to filter out the 25-man guilds. You’d have to assume Ulduar never gets pugged for the 25-mans. It seems silly to remove an entire 10-man guild from the rankings if 1-2 people run 25s — checking for either loot (ewwww) or achievements. Perhaps it’d just be enough to only use guilds without a 25-man progress or whose numbers fall too low to qualify for 25s any more.
Of course, besides the exclusively 10s ranking, all 10 man progress (how it’s set up currently), 25 man progress, and overall progress are all very nice things to see. In the end, everyone likes things done their way, so to make the user base happier, you might just need to add more options.
July 20th, 2009 on 8:15 pm
Great site. I’m quite happy to see my guild’s progress up.
One suggestion though:
Would you consider removing Algalon as a criterion for the Descent into Madness portion of Ulduar progress?
He’s not listed in the Descent achievement, nor is he in that zone. He’s more of an optional boss for those guilds that have been so dedicated and talented to pull of hard mode kills on Iron Council and all 4 keepers.
Could he be moved to a seperate category, kinda like how you have with hard modes?